#2: How Brittany is Leading a Plant-Based Food Revolution

Daniel Tsentsiper (00:00.174) Let's do that one. Okay, I'll edit this part out. do it. Three, two, one. Brittany, welcome to the show. How are you doing today? Doing good. How about you? I'm doing well. I see in your background, you have a lot of nature. It seems like you're somewhere in the jungle. Where are you calling from today? I'm calling in from Big Island, Hawaii. Nice. Super cool. How long have you been there so far? Did you spend your holidays there? It's been about two years. We're taking care of my partner's parents who are here and so kind of pop back over to California when I need to. But it's been the bulk of my time here, which is, think, you know, good for the soul. Yeah, I think that if for me, whenever I just most of time I'm like in the office, like working all the time and I try at least one day out of the week to just go out in nature. We live really close to Golden Gate Park. So like At least one day out of the seven days I try to just go and touch grass. And I feel like it's just like really resetting when you can just like go out and separate yourself from the day to day. But I'm very excited to have you on the show. Wanted to kind of learn more about your story. I found it to be very fascinating. You want to tell our audience a little bit about yourself, maybe some of the cool things that you're working on and just give us like a high level. overview on who you are and some of the cool stuff you're working on. Yeah, definitely. So I am the co-founder and program director of an initiative called Make Futures. Essentially, it started when I was a student about four years ago. Me and my co-founder, she was getting her master's of public health. I was studying business at Haas, transfer like you. And in our respective programs, we were both kind of surprised that weren't talking about plant-based food, both from the health perspective and the business perspective, especially then huge boom in plant-based alternatives and whatnot. so as you might know, there was at Berkeley, these things called decals where you can teach your own class. so even though I hated public speaking, I was like, I have to teach a decal. And so I put together syllabus. I was trying to run it by different professors. They were all like, we already are. Daniel Tsentsiper (02:19.65) Sponsoring a Decal, we can't do it. I finally connected with Will Rosenzweig, who had the Edible Education class there, to see if he would sponsor it. And he was like, I'm connected with Samantha Derrick, this other student. She's working on a similar thing. You guys should just combine forces, create these multidisciplinary courses, and have it actually be like for credit and something that lasts. And so we ended up doing that. Ended up having two courses. One of them was kind of like a crash course, weekend symposium. brought in like 30 to 35 speakers in the space. First day focused on like the why we need to shift towards plant based food systems and then kind of the how. And so don't have to be a food scientist for like beyond meat. You could be like media, law, policy, all these different things you could do. That one ended up having 500 students enroll the first time. And then we created this other one was a challenge lab where it was kind of for students who already had. understanding of the why they needed to shift towards these, but really wanted to get applied learning into space. And so when I was a student, we had an amazing career counselor at Haas, but I went to them said, Hey, I want to work in a plant based alternative space. And they said, that's not really possible, but you could apply to be like sustainability director at Bank of America. And I was like, this is not really what I'm going. What does that even mean? Really, you we realized that these startups, even the larger ones, weren't really like putting internships out there for students. And so it's kind of applied learning program for students actually get to work with nonprofits or startups in the space on a semester long program to get something to put on their resume. They build network connections and then incredibly popular, both of those. so now we've expanded to some form of curriculum or programming at 80 different universities in the last few years. so it's been really exciting to see the growth and the impact that we've had being able to support these nonprofits and startups as well. I love that. You know, we both went to to Berkeley Haas and before before the show, we were talking about how most of the students typically go down three paths, right? There's the accounting, banking, consulting. And when I first transferred to Berkeley, I also was riding the wave. I tried banking for a little bit that wasn't Daniel Tsentsiper (04:37.038) really my strong suit and then did consulting. And then I sort of like realized like, hey, the reason why I came to Berkeley is because I wanted to be around so many founders, people that are just like innovating, people working on cool projects. And I remember there was a company, I think it was Quokka Brew. They were building, I think they were also in Haas and they were building like a CPG brand, right? Of like Jitterless Coffee. And then I thought to myself, I'm like, this seems like an amazing business, right? It's a food startup. How come there isn't more people working in this space? And why isn't the business school promoting this sort of entrepreneurship, trying to come up with an idea sort of like you did from scratch and putting it out there? think personally, that's like one of the best environments where you can kind of test out an idea. see the, you know, see the, see the traction, see how many people are interested and then, you know, be able to elevate yourself and monetize it or, know, take it to, to the next level. And when I look at your, you know, career, you started off with, you know, doing this at school. What made you decide to kind of after college to take this to the next level? It seems like you've been at it for about four years. What was the, the why for you to kind of take this full time? Yeah. I mean, I think that we, both my co-founder and I just realized that there was such a heavy demand for it and it was really missing. It was definitely scary jumping into, let's launch a nonprofit right after. Everyone's got their cushy secure jobs. I came from very low income background, so jumping into something where at the beginning did not have any salary, to volunteer my time towards it, of course. was nerve wracking, but thankfully we did have the support of some mentors that were really able to help us get things set up correctly, connect us with some folks so that we could start the fundraising process to make sure that it was something that we could grow. And so of course, it's been a passion of mine for a very long time. Same for her, had both been vegan for, I think like 18 years or something when we met. So it was like long-term vegans. Daniel Tsentsiper (06:57.142) that were like, is what we want to do. While we were students, it was what we wanted to do. We spent our time doing that more than we did coursework. And so it was kind of an obvious choice, but definitely a scary one. Why do you think, and this can kind of segue to the next topic, why do you think that the, I'm just going to bucket it as like alternative, you can help me out here. like plant-based foods, alternative meat, vegan products, Is there like an umbrella term that I can use to describe like this, this category of, of food and businesses? I think plant-based is good because there's of course, full food, plant-based options and alternative proteins, all that. Right. Why do you think this, this industry at the time that you know, when you were a student, wasn't as commercialized and then of course we see some of the big players come out sort of around the same time. And then there was this huge boom and then I have some questions around. Recently, I've been seeing a bit of a downturn in the industry. Why do you think that it wasn't as commercialized when you were a student and there wasn't as many opportunities for folks like, you know, yourself studying business or people studying media, scientists to work in these types of companies? Yeah, I mean, I think there is people were very stuck in their ways of eating for a long time of, the traditional American diet, which I totally understand. I came from a very neat potatoes family. I just happened to be very strong animal lover and felt kind of hypocritical and eventually something just snapped in me and I couldn't do anymore, but totally understand that it is something that is like cultural habitual, you know, ingrained in us. I think people just started to wake up a little bit more to the, like ethical impacts of it, health impacts. The science has been there for a long time of that, but as we know, science kind of takes a while for people to adopt. And then once. people did start making these more innovative products, there was money and interest from VCs. And once there's money and interest from VCs, everyone's gonna jump in. Everyone wants to then realize that they can actually take their passion because it's something where it's like, finally, you know, not all things that give VC funding are the most like good for society. And so a lot of passionate people can, you know, go in and say, this is actually something that's good for society for me to make this product. Daniel Tsentsiper (09:22.336) And so of course then everyone jumped in in it. And then of course all the existing companies are going to jump in as well and make their products once they see that. Yeah, I hear you. Do you think that the the cash infusion with VCs and all the excitement around plant based food, do you think that took the industry in in a positive direction or do you think it was a bit of a let's say like you think it was a little too quick for the industry? and might have actually taken a couple steps back. What do you think? I think it's overall positive because even though some companies are of course not going to make it, it exposed people to plant-based food way more rapidly than has ever been done before. I I used to have one new vegan product get released a year and I would be so stoked when I would see it in the store. I'd be like, buy it from Whole Foods, you the specialty grocery store. to try and now I have not been able to catch up in the last five years of trying everything now because there's just too many products. so family members at Heavy Heavy Meat Eaters, they're getting the Impossible Whopper at Burger King. They're getting the Beyond Orange Chicken at Panda Express. They're trying these products and loving them and having that exposure. And I don't think that would have happened if there hadn't been such a heavy boom at once. And of course, with heavy booms, there's gonna be everyone's going to jump in and only a certain number of companies are going to survive. There's not, with any other food product, there's not a hundred different types of animal-based burger that are out there. So it's like if a hundred are going to come out, only three or four are really probably going to survive and actually be stocked on the shelves. But, you know, it's this way, the ones that are the most enjoyed by consumers are going to stick around. So. That's a good point. with, especially in our industry, there's so many companies using AI to solve X, Y, Z. And when you have this gold rush of innovation, you're going to have a lot of competition. And then eventually there's going to be a consolidation and you'll see a couple of key players sort of monopolize the industry. When I think of, I actually looked to see which, so we're in the QSR space, like fast food, Daniel Tsentsiper (11:48.494) Also casual fine dining as well. And I remember in 2021 there was all these different products coming out. I have a list here. You mentioned the orange chicken. I love that. KFC did the Beyond Fried Chicken Nuggets. That's discontinued. Hardee's did the Beyond Burger. That was discontinued. McDonald's did the McPlant. Discontinued. Subway did Beyond Meat Sandwich. Discontinued. Couple of brands that still stuck around is Y Castle with their Impossible Sliders. I don't know if you've tried those. Those are pretty good. I haven't. My partner is a big fan of that. Delicious. The Impossible Whopper is still on the menu. Wienerschnitzel actually has a ton of different vegan hot dog options on the menu. you sort of see like the ones, and this is just maybe my hypothesis. You can chime in and give me your thoughts, but there is a lot of brands trying out to ride the wave, right? They saw a lot of enthusiasm consumers excited about these products. And then once we kind of hit 2023 with inflation, the prices started to go up exponentially. And then a lot of consumers were sort of priced out and these alternative, you know, alternative meat options weren't as economically viable for a lot of consumers. Did you see something like that sort of happened to you and some of the the brands that you were kind of following and enjoy that the prices kind of got extremely high. And for a lot of people, it was just wasn't when you're deciding between a healthier option and something that's not as healthy, but cheaper, perhaps maybe some customers were choosing to opt off for the cheaper alternative. Exactly. And I think especially if you haven't tried it yet, if you haven't tried it, you don't know if you like it, you're not going to buy a new product from the grocery store that you haven't tried that you're not sure if you're going to like that you're not sure if you're going to know how to cook with it. If it's more expensive, inevitably with a smaller brand, it's always going to be more expensive than a larger brand. It's just something until it can scale. It's going to be the case. Unfortunately, there's also a strong history of even if the product is sold to the restaurant and whatnot, that Daniel Tsentsiper (14:05.122) the same price as like the traditional one, the alternative will be marked up because they realize they can mark it up. so oftentimes it's not actually the cost of the product itself, but that, which is a little sad because it is affecting our environment. It's affecting people's health to not have access to these products at the same price point. Yeah, that's a good point. I actually was looking at the difference between like the Impossible Whopper versus the regular Whopper. And the difference between those two products is around $2. I was thinking to myself, is that because the cost for the restaurant is higher for the Impossible Whopper versus the traditional beef? then another part of me thought, maybe they're just, you know, people that are looking for vegan products are less price sensitive than people that are looking for beef. So. Yeah, it is a little bit sad, you know, trying to make a higher margin because, you know, people are looking for something that isn't as widely available. So I wanted to kind of take a step back and I want to hear more about Plant Futures. So you mentioned, I saw on your LinkedIn, you're teaching a class. Is that for Plant Futures? Yes. Okay. And tell me more. So you guys have the... You have the symposium. You also have the course. If a student is watching this, how can they find planned futures? How can they take your course? And what can they expect if they join the program? Yeah, definitely. So yeah, if you're UC student, you want to take the class every spring from now on. It will be offered across all UCs, taught by Neoco Schinner myself. She's the founder of Neoco's Cheese also. has done a lot of work in used education. She has a fantastic animal sanctuary. So really powerhouse in the space. So that will be offered in every fall. UC Berkeley offers the Challenge Lab course, which is the more intensive one with projects partners. But the UC course also has a smaller component where you are able to either work with a nonprofit or start up in the space. Daniel Tsentsiper (16:23.478) on a 10 week project to gain some hands-on experience and build out your network. Or you can create kind of your own initiative that helps shift and accelerate us towards more plant-based food systems. What were some of your favorite projects that you've seen in the past semesters? Gosh, they're so diverse. We worked with Bell Brands to help, know, the little wax covered cheeses. They came out with a vegan one and we worked with them to help just reformulate it to get it to be a little bit whiter, a little less grainy, to be closer to the you know, natural solid alternative for it. And so I was into that one because also my partner is like a huge fan of them. They were already really good before. So I honestly didn't really notice the negative feedback that they were saying that they were having, but that one was neat. done some really cool projects just trying to help shift the narrative around. plant-based food and it being processed because it is something where inevitably when this new market grows, there is going to be a lot of immediate pushback from, you know, like our ranchers industry and whatnot, trying to do basically clutch onto anything that they can of saying, you know, like, it's hyper-processed. It's not good for you. Even though, you know, it's literally plant-based, it's made of plants. And when you think of pasta, pasta is also highly processed in much of the same way. so. those have been really fun, but because we have students from over 50 different majors participate in the program, it's such a wide diversity and really fun part of the class is that it's really like whatever pain point the company is currently having that they want to work on, but the students actually get to work on. That's really cool. And, and, what are some, so you mentioned, what was the name of the company that that's doing the cheese? Yeah. So Bell. Bell Brands, make the baby bell cheeses. Yes, baby bell. also do a couple other like almost cream cheesy style soft cheese spreads. But yeah, they're traditionally a dairy company, but they did come out with their plant-based product. so that one was to me, I think it is important for people to have kind of that easy access to their favorites as well. Yeah. And so having things like that, as much as I, you know, Daniel Tsentsiper (18:47.062) wish that I could just snap my fingers and have it be all vegan brands everywhere. I think it makes it a little bit easier for people to shift if they can go to the grocery store instead of buying the baby bell, they can buy the plant-based baby bowl. What would you tell a restaurant owner that is considering adding some vegan options to the menu? What advice would you offer them to kind of think of? you know, adding new products and maybe even experimenting and putting out this product into the market. What would you say to them if they're curious about doing it? They see that it offers a way to attract, you know, new customers, for instance. Yeah. What advice would you offer them if they're trying something new? Yeah. Well, one thing that's really been scientifically proven is to not hide it away in a separate part of the menu. Because if you want adoption from people that aren't just being your big vegetarian as well, if you like, say like, here's a little teeny, little section, sad little section at the end. People aren't as willing to do it. so, and also you don't need to label it like the vegan burger. You can have like a little just symbol that says it, label it something that describes how delicious it is. That has adoption rate be way higher. And so that's one thing. Another thing is there's a lot of studies that have been coming out with consumers. It's I think 83 % of Consumers are conflicted carnivores in the US. And so it's, still eat meat, but they know that it has negative impacts on animals, health or environment. And so they are looking for things, but taste is obviously key. so taste is key more than price point is key. And so people really want things that taste good, but you don't necessarily have to go. So like then possible or beyond to get something that's tasting like I think talk about was exploring using kind of oats or soy protein to make some crumble. It's you really just need something to texture of meat and then you put some tacos and it tastes like taco meat. And so there's ways to explore it. I think that don't necessarily have to be where you're buying a branding product to put into your brain that are very simple as well. Amazing. If let's say if I wanted to create my own like Daniel Tsentsiper (21:12.014) you know, a vegan alternative to meat. Can I just like buy all the ingredients myself and just like put it together? And how easy would that be? How does it work? It's pretty easy. I mean, I have, you know, like done the products that are more like Beyond Impossible at home where you just take some kind of soy or pea protein. And then you just take a little bit of some kind of like filling agent, natural ones that you can get your hands on that. is made to make any kind of thickening agent basically. And then you can just form the patties. You flavor it with whatever spices that you want and then you cook it up. So it's pretty simple. Quite easy. Yeah. And how are the macros on those? They're great. mean, that's another thing that's really sad is that people look at, you know, one of the things in that study with the 83 % is that the reason why people were hesitant is because still the freaking thing of like, but it doesn't have enough protein. Yeah. That's like, it's literally if it's made of soy protein or pea protein, it has protein. It's it's just like for wheat gluten, which is the traditional one and all the old school vegan meats like tofurky and whatnot. It's one of the highest protein contents of any food out there. And so it's it's something where it's you get all your nutrients, but you're not getting cholesterol plant based food. does not have cholesterol by nature. It's only animal-based products that do. Of course, you're going to get more fiber, you're going to get more nutrients, and so you're going to get overall usually way less fat, way less saturated fat. And so they're very healthy, very good for you, and very tasty. Listen, I'm definitely in the camp of the conflicted carnivore. There was a documentary, which I'm sure you know the name of, but it's slipping, it's slipping my memory right now. I watched it in, I think it was high school. It was about chicken farming in Tyson. And that really scared me. And then I remember just in the back of my mind, always having that, that, that thought that me consuming meat was contributing to a system that is inherently dangerous to, to animals and is cruel. But a part of me just like tries to Daniel Tsentsiper (23:31.318) forget, tries to like not remember that I watched that documentary, try to be like oblivious to the fact that it's happening and Daniel Tsentsiper (23:41.774) I also was really into fitness. was, you know, the, used to do bodybuilding. I used to be a personal trainer. So I would, you know, I would tell when I used to make meal preps for my clients, I would tell them, okay, you got to have a carb, right? Little carb. You got to have the vegetable. 40 % of it needs to be vegetable. Then you got to have that protein in there. You know, whatever meat source you like, seafood, fish, fish, chicken, beef, you need to have some sort of protein there because we, I believe that humans don't get enough protein. especially in America, our diet does not have enough protein. People are very heavy on the carbs, not so much on the protein. But then I started doing my own research and I was shocked at how much protein like broccoli has. It was amazing. And I just started like looking into it and I was starting to wonder like, where does that ignorance come from, right? Why do I feel like, why don't I believe that plants have enough protein to sustain my diet? And you briefly mentioned how there was some negative media around plant-based foods. I'm sure that some of that comes from some of these big brands pushing a narrative. Curious, where do you think a lot of this cognitive dissonance and confusion comes from? That plants are just not enough for people to sustain their daily lives? It's just we all, food is something that's so personal to us. And then like I said, it's so habitual and we don't want to feel bad about the things that we're eating, understandably. so cognitive dispense is just like survival method. And so it's something where everyone that I know that has shifted towards being fully plant-based kind of just had a moment where they felt it for years and they just were like, oh, I can't do it anymore. I can't eat it. And just kind of then shifted. And it's just, think your brain. sometimes just finally kind of like snaps and goes like, can't ignore it. But it's something that's so built into our psychology that it's really hard to break. And because of that too, we look for any kind of supportive thing that could make us feel better about the choices that we're making. And so if you're able to think that, no, this is necessary for my health, even though science for years has said it is not. And if you are able to think that, Daniel Tsentsiper (26:02.7) you you're not going to give them the protein or it's ultra processed. So it's unhealthy. You can kind of cling to that. Even if you are eating other traditionally processed foods on a regular basis, it's just something where people also cling to the fact that they, the existence of like grass fed beef or things like that, that they think are better. 99 % of the animals in the U S come from factory farms, but people still kind of have the mindset that maybe the meal that they are eating is not. 99 % of the time that is not the case. But it's just, it's, know, people want to do that. I think actually an interesting thing for QSR is there have been studies where if you put a salad on the side as a side option, people are more likely to order the onion rings or French fries because the existence of the option of the salad gives their mind a little bit of there was an option to be healthy for some reason. Our minds are very complex, weird things. And so just the existence of that makes them feel better about that. And I think the existence of slightly better farming practices or slightly better treated animals makes people feel better about eating animals as well. Two things. That's maybe the reason why I feel good whenever I get my lettuce wrapped, double, double. I feel like I'm actually eating something healthy and just wrapping it in lettuce. and then Yeah, you make you make a lot of really good points, a lot of things that are actually making me question some of my own thought process, right? What have you seen some of the cool new innovations, technologies that are coming out in in this space that you think are getting you really, really excited? Yeah, I mean, I'm into it all. I come from a family of cattle ranchers, hunters, and so I am very into all the realistic meat replacements. Within the plant-based world, there's a little bit of division on that, but I think that as many things as we can get out there, see what people like. There's issues with different ones on scalability for the cell-based meat and whatnot, but I also have friends who won't eat a plant-based burger, but if it was a cell-grown burger, they'd eat it. So hey, let's get it out there. It's better for them. I'm really into the mushroom-based ones. Daniel Tsentsiper (28:28.014) because I think that they're just really neat that you can kind of like grow like a full cut of something out of mushrooms. Yeah, I agree. I agree with you. I'm very bullish on mushrooms on all different spectrums, whether it's the atropics. My parents are from Belarus. in our, we have a summer home. And I remember when I was young, we would go and pick different types of mushrooms. So I grew up eating, yeah. eating so many varieties of mushrooms and you can do so much of it, right? You can create a burger out of it. You can have it as the entire, you can have it be the center point of a meal. And then is there any new technologies coming out in the growing of mushrooms, more sustainable ways to grow mushrooms? Has there been anything interesting on that front? Grow mushrooms is basically similar to, terms of at least the growing like mycelium for, which is kind of how it's being done for like the full cuts of meat. That's kind of similar process to making beer. And so it's a relatively easy process as long as you have like a plant that can do that. So not really any big developments of that. It's kind of just a relatively simple process where they can do it. great part about mushrooms is of course they grow fast. so you start to finish, it's like eight, 10 days, you can have the product from growing it. so definitely a lot more efficient than a lot of different plants that we can grow and a lot more efficient than growing cattle for food. You bring up efficiency. I remember reading on the website for plant futures, was the the why, like why plant-based? And your team wrote, it's the most efficient and effective way to meet our current and future needs to solve climate crisis, fostering health, and ending animal suffering. So do you believe that a big part of why we should turn to plant-based food is because it's, when thinking about different farming methods, it is... Daniel Tsentsiper (30:48.43) in production of food. It is one of the most efficient ways for us to feed the masses and to give our communities healthier alternatives when it comes to food. Yeah, I mean, it's we obviously the animals that we raise for food need to be fed. They need to be fed. They need their cages cleaned of stuff. So they need water to be sprayed on them on a pretty regular basis. And so we're growing things like corn and soy that are then fed to these animals. And so overall, you're only getting about 10 % of the calories from the amount of food that you're putting out there to do it. And it takes a lot of land, a lot of time, a lot of resources and isn't very ethical or good for. And so it's something where if you think of it like that, then Yeah, you could use that land or you could use those actual crops to feed people or use the land to grow different crops that people didn't want to eat, know, open or so. Amazing. I guess on the final note here, I have two more questions for you. First is. Big fan, personally, big fan of Alice Waters. What are some other change makers, innovators in this space that you want to tell our audience about so they could, personally, I would love to follow them and maybe one of our audience can also be inspired to take that step. Who are some people that you follow that you think are super cool these days? Yeah, gosh, there's so many people. Katie control is really, really neat. She was the founder of what used to be called factory farming awareness coalition. It's now called new roots Institute. And she's also been the founder of better food foundationings there by default. Greener by default is basically the people that have done a lot of studies with different institutions. I think they've worked with like LinkedIn is Google as well, but with the New York healthcare system, they. Daniel Tsentsiper (32:55.978) made the options plant-based by default. And as humans, we picked the default option. And so it actually changed their carbon footprint, the amount of people that picked plant-based and enjoyed it. It went from like 10 % of people picking it to like 60 to 7 % of people picking it. And it doesn't take away people's agency. If they want to add in meat or add in cheese, they still can add in meat and cheese. But if you give a good plant-based default option, people will choose that. And I think that that's just one of the strongest levers that we have for changing our food system. If we just shifted towards that, anyone who still wanted to eat meat and cheese and animal products would do so. But institutionally, we should have that in our health care systems. We should have that in our schools. If you set up cafeterias, if you set up events like that, it makes such a big impact. And I mean, we need to act quickly. for the health of our planet basically. And so I think that what she's doing is like the most impactful work out there right now. Amazing. Definitely have to check her out. And Brittany, last thing here. What are some cool things you're working on these days? What's next for you? Oh gosh. Our small little team is working on so much. Continuing. Expanding the curriculum. I think it's a really impactful way for students to get educated about this topic, get inspired to work in the space, find careers in food systems. The UC course, of course, so sign up for that, please. Aside from that, we're just continuing to grow expanding into Mexico and Canada as well, and so excited to continue making an impact. Amazing and one more question you mentioned at the beginning you were you were a bit shy speaking in front of you know in front of. audiences and now you're telling me also that you're an instructor too. how, first of all, how many students are typically in your classes and what is it like to be an instructor at Berkeley? That's like, are the coolest? That's probably my dream job one day. Yeah, it was weird. So I went from graduating to starting teaching the class immediately. And like I said, I used to be the student that like, wouldn't even raise my hand in class. The alt meet lab class at UC Berkeley was the one I raised my hand. That's so passionate. Daniel Tsentsiper (35:13.678) But it's rough. People say that it gets easier. It's gotten like 2 % easier. You just remember the slides now. Exactly. But it's so rewarding. It's part of me is always like, why am I doing this to myself with my anxiety? But then the students are just incredible. You see the impact that it has on them, the impact that it has with organizations that we partner with. And so you got to get over it and suck it up. Yeah, that's great advice. Brittany, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure catching up to learn more about what you're doing and gave me a lot of things to think about. And I hope our audience also enjoyed the conversation. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. You take care. Bye. You too. me end the recording.